August 29, 2011

Going to grad school is a predictor of low success rates in the workplace. I’m not saying this is 100 percent true—because no behavioral predictor is 100 percent true. But there’s a reason that Google lives and dies by behavioral interviews: On balance, past behavior does predict future behavior.

Hiring is a game of probability. It’s likely that if the person got fired from the last two jobs, you will fire them as well. It’s likely if a person was a superstar at the last two companies, she’ll be a superstar at yours.

By the same token, it’s likely if a person attended graduate school, they will have a hard time translating their strengths into strong workplace performance.

For one thing, most people who went to grad school did it to prolong adolescent needs for grade-based approval. (Note: This analysis comes from writers at the Chronicle for Higher Education.) This is because the model of grad school is generally outdated for today’s workforce, and high performers see this before they enroll. But people who are scared to try holding their own in the workforce see grad school as a way around the inevitable difficulties of finding a job one enjoys.

Here are three reasons why it’s a decent bet to stay away from candidates with graduate degrees:

Humanities are for people afraid of adult life

Graduate degrees in the humanities are a dead end. I should know. I went to graduate school for English, which was totally useless except to give me a little break from real life.

But it’s not just the field of English that is a dead end. One would have had a better chance surviving the Titanic than getting a job as any type of humanities professor. Humanities PhD programs suck up their time and energy with little return.

Most people who go to grad school for humanities defend their decision by saying they love their topic. But look, if you love your topic, you can do it after work. Open the book and read it yourself.

Business school is for non-self-starters

If you were hiring for a position in the Fortune 500, a recent grad from a top 10 business school might be a good bet. But since you are actually hiring for a small business, ask yourself: Why did this person just dump $100,000 into a business degree instead of dumping into their own company?

If the person doesn’t believe in themselves enough to give their own ideas a shot, why should you believe in them? A lot of people write about how business school is not a good path to entrepreneurship. The only reason we are even talking about business school in relationship to entrepreneurship is that so many people want to be entrepreneurs that business schools had to launch entrepreneurship programs to attract those people.

But Saras Sarasvathy, from Dartmouth’s business school, explained to me the research about which are the traits of a successful entrepreneur. And none of those traits require going to business school.

Law school is for uncreative types who become low performers

This is not true of everyone, okay? I’m sure there are some really creative lawyers. But you have to wonder, why are they lawyers? There are five, big myths about being a lawyer, but they boil down to that problem with law school is that to get in, you have to be great at school (reading, and regurgitating back to the professor what they want to hear) and you have to be great at test-taking (the LSAT still rules admissions).

But to be a successful lawyer, you have to be great at marketing and client relations. Otherwise you won’t make any money because you won’t bring in any business. It used to be that law firms were safety zones—like a college with tenure. But today lawyers get booted out of practices where they’ve become partner if they are not also a rainmaker.

The result: Lawyers are the most dissatisfied group of professionals in the workplace. In a poll of current lawyers from the American Bar Association, more than half the lawyers recommended that people do not become lawyers.

There are other grad school red flags: For example, someone has a degree that is practical—like a PhD in chemistry who is applying to a job at Merck. On face value, the degree makes a strong candidate. But if the candidate has two more degrees, run. Multiple degrees are from people who don’t know themselves, don’t value their time, and are stuck in a rut trying to impress people with academic trophies.

Look for someone who goes to grad school because they know what they want to do in the workforce, and they are guiding themselves on that path. The most important knowledge a candidate can have is not grad-school knowledge or skill-based knowledge, but rather, self-knowledge. Look for that in future hires. It’ll change your company for the better.

Join the conversation ( 74 )

• Archer Grant 22 days ago

  

  Perhaps some of the readers should consider this book on worthless degrees?
  
  http://www.amazon.com/Worthless-Indispensable-Guide-Choosing-Right/dp/1467978302
  
  Though it may already be too late with $100,000 in student debt, a worthless degree and an attitude.

• Shannon Beckham 2 months ago

  

  This is an insulting article. Yes, I am a graduate school product. In particular an insult to me because I went back to school once my children went into high school & didn't need me as much. Not a lazy attempt to "prolong adolescent needs for grade-based approval" - Give me a Break!!
  
  With the intellectual necessities of today's global business, this article only puts us even farther into the dark ages. I do agree that entrepeneurs are valuable, but to go to the extent to insult those who went to grad school & even including yourself (author) into that group --- speak for yourself & your own low-self-esteem.

• Torry Lewis, MPA 3 months ago

  

  Stupid.
  
  B.S., MPA, Ph.D.
  
  Employed

• Anne-Caroline Sieffert 3 months ago

  

  This is great advice actually. Based on your resentment toward going to grad school, and this article, I would never hire you nor invest in your business.
  
  Cause obviously,according to your own article and categories, you did not go to grad school to guide yourself on the way to the workplace, but to hide; your past behavior shows trends of being childish, and whimpy; you have had three start-ups already, but there is no clear record of where the other two went (high failure rate much?); in my experience, someone who cannot deal positively with a past dissatisfaction and build from there will always fail; four attempts to find a career means someone unstable.
  
  And someone who has such a short-sighted view of business school and education in general--unlikely to understand long term market trends.
  
  In short, yeah,, definitely no hire for you.
  
  Sorry. I guess English majors really don't cut it. No hard feelings though, I just avoided a major annoyance by taking your advice: never hire a would-be writer who ends up a consultant because they failed at the previous three attempts to have a career!
  
  Love,
  Acey Sieffert

• BARRY DECK 4 months ago

  

  Penelope, your piece is anti-education, anti-innovation, and ultimately anti-intellectual. There seems to be some research behind some of what you're saying, but not nearly enough. I suggest you take some time out from Brazen Careerism to do some research. When you do, you'll find that the most interesting findings have come from people with grad degrees.
  
  Change is needed today in society at large, not just in academia. While it's true that many academic programs lack what it takes to manage change on the exponential curve we're now on, most businesses also lack what it takes.
  
  If you believe that people often choose grad school to jump over low-level jobs they're bored with, rather than waiting in line, you're probably right. Maybe they don't want to waste their time working under bosses who are not mentor material, who don't inspire them, and who don't respect them. Perhaps they don't agree with the direction that companies willing to hire them are taking right now. Imagine for a moment that because they are often from generation Y or X, they have a completely different world view than most of today's business leaders.
  
  If you wonder why MBAs spend the 100k on grad school, try sending a sampling of MBA candidates out to secure 100k SBA loans in today's credit climate. Or better yet, just look at the outrageous portion of the class of 2011 that remains unemployed.
  
  With job creation lagging behind population growth in the US, I don't even know why you'd bother to write such an article today. Tell me, is it just part of your inbound marketing campaign to drive traffic to Brazen Careerism? Who's hiring? McDonald's?
  
  In my humble opinion, your time would be better spent teaching Inuits to surf.
  
  Please don't write here again.
  
  

• Kat Von Shaggy 4 months ago

  

  I could see some of this, but at the same time... grades and approval aren't necessary for me. I wanted to learn more about theory and what I get as a grade... who gives a rats! I do find some of this offensive because these ideas are a bit of a generalization that puts those of us who are doing these things in a bad light.

• Dave Reed 4 months ago

  

  Oddly enough, former employers have sited my advanced degree as a main reason for getting the job. Go figure. One went so far as to say that it showed I'd stick with a job until it was finished and I'd be dependable.
  
  Maybe Penelope should go speak with an actual chemistry Ph.D. I think she'd find the only places they can do the kind of research they want is in a University setting. And further, would I want to take 3rd year college English from a teacher who only had a 4-year degree?
  
  As for multiple degrees in multiple disciplines, I myself have changed areas of interest over the years and I find nothing wrong with attending classes to learn new things. If these courses reach the level of a degree then should I not take the degree? Or, will you label me as "stuck in a rut trying to impress people with academic trophies."
  
  Crappy article overall I think.

• Brandon Gill 5 months ago

  

  Google is the leading employer of MBA's in the US. You may want to rethink your examples. Maybe grad school would help you improve in the area of research.

• Brian Rice 5 months ago

  

  Consider the world of Applied Math, which includes Statistics, Computational Mathematics, Algorithms, etc. In our camp, a graduate degree is almost obligatory. Why? Because there is simply TOO MUCH to learn (and digest) in 4 years; it won't fit into an undergraduate program.
  
  As for Humanities degrees, I agree completely. It's just prolonged, expensive, mental masturbation.

• Tracy Warren 5 months ago

  

  Do realize that graduate school degrees can be earned in areas outside of the Humanities, business and law and that most science and engineering fields require advanced degrees?

• Becki Nelson 5 months ago

  

  Remarkably intolerant article. I have an English undergrad degree...and I'm working at a professional level job I love in a "completely unexpected" field, one I don't think I'd have if I'd attended school just so I could be trained for "a job." Our understanding of the value of University and advanced degrees in the US has been co-opted by a cynical, materialistic pragmatism. My degree actually prepared me at a base level to do well in corporate and consulting positions in healthcare, banking, retail, and now with an airline. It's not whether (or not) you get "the degree", it's what you do with what you have, your willingness to work hard, and the quality of your business relationships that make the difference. Smart businesses will pay attention to that.

• Accomplish 5 months ago

  

  There are some great comments to this post! It is quite cynical, and parts aren't entirely true, but something we've found interesting is that obviously more and more people are going back to school because of the recession. But what people don't realize is that they're not not getting hired because they don't have a second degree, they're not not getting hired because there just aren't enough jobs. And it's not school that's going to put you over the top - it's concrete skills in the workplace. So better to work for free and be an intern, then lose money by getting a degree that won't necessarily increase your skills.

  • Ryan Stoffko 3 months ago

    

    That's actually a false generalized statement. Not trying to start an argument or anything like that, but if you look at grad school applications in sciences, especially, grad school applications have decreased significantly. I am honestly not too sure about other programs, but the recession would actually hurt individuals going into graduate school because of the increased student loans. Luckily, my program offers a stipend and no tuition :-) otherwise I would find anything I can do, whether it was a part of my major or not.

  • Dave Reed 4 months ago

    

    "So better to work for free and be an intern, then lose money by getting a degree that won't necessarily increase your skills."
    
    Obviously this person did NOT get an advanced degree in English. 1st you work for free and afterwords get a degree that won't increase your skills. Nice.

  • Ruth Vallejos 5 months ago

    

    Yeah - that's good if you have support. You can get loans to get a degree. Can you get loans to support yourself through internships? It might be nice if you could combine the two experiences... go to school, but be an intern. Then be able to compare your internship experience with other college classmates.
    
    With some professional careers (I'm an architect), the move is to require more 6 year degrees. I got a 5 year bachelor degree that is recognized as acceptable for taking the licensing exam. I'm hoping that 5 year degree remains valid. I just couldn't wait to get out there and start building things, even though there was a horrid recession at the time. (1984 - 18% interest rates. YIKES!) And I have seen many "idiots" who have no real interest in a career in architecture stay in school because they like the intellectual exercise. Phooey! They can stay there.
    
    But there are others with masters who are using the time to find out all they can about such a wide ranging career path, as well as honing in on specialties (such as sustainable design) that is research based. This is valid and shouldn't be scoffed at.

• Robert Dempsey 5 months ago

  

  It's amazing the number of people that rail against going to business school or getting an advanced degree that have found their degree useless to them. You don't read anyone that has been helped by their degree suggesting that someone not get one, at least not as often.
  
  Perhaps I'm the exception here (though I doubt it) but I went into a Saturday MBA program while my second business was doing very well. That growth continued throughout the program. As an entrepreneur who is now on his third business having sold a number of online applications, etc. I have found my MBA to be highly valuable to be. I have a better than solid understanding of the financial aspects, and having the degree gives me more credibility when working with larger corporate clients.
  
  Advanced degrees do not indicate future career or business success, and they may not be necessary for someone to have his or her own business, however more education is never a bad thing.

• Danny Healy 5 months ago

  

  Cynical post! Pretty spot on though. I'm considering doing an MBA. I've tried to set up my own business quite unsuccessfully. I've also never demonstrated entrepreneurial success (I've never made myself or someone else rich). My undergraduate is in psychology So I think being trained and graded on how to run a business is probably a good starting point. Business School or not I'm always going to be attempting to open new business's. Still, getting a recognized qualification is a handy albeit expensive safety net.

• KYLE HAWKE 5 months ago

  

  Penelope, Sarasvathy is from Darden's business school, not Dartmouth.

• Adam Hoeksema 5 months ago

  

  Higher education should help their students work closely with businesses while they are still in school. Class projects should not be created for imaginary companies or hypothetical situations. Allow businesses to apply for student class projects so that students can gain REAL world experience while still in class and maybe even help spur business growth at the same time.
  
  We have built a web-based platform that connects student class projects with businesses, and we are looking for beta testers. Check it out at http://www.stringhub.com/landing/beta-test-stringhub-3

• DYNAMIC 5 months ago

  

  I laughed through the entire article. Practically every mid-level job description includes 'advanced degree preferred' or increasingly, a requirement, to whittle down the applicant pool. Often, it appears the laundry lists posted in job descriptions / requirements, companies' maybe unsure of what they desire from prospective employees. For them, the next applicant always holds the brass ring, so they keep on searching. Definitley, a buyer's market.

• Ana Evelyn Maldonado 5 months ago

  

  Grad School is not certainly for all...but for sure, all people that pursue grad school have technical depth, skills and whatever is necessary to succeed, more than those acquired in a undergraduate environment. Bad employers are that worst that don't even know how to exploit and take advantage of all the knowledge and expertise their employees have. A good leader encourage their talented people to develop their skills for the benefit of the company and the employee itself. This article is pointless and for sure is generalizing for a few stories of success, which are not norm in today's reality.

• Naaz YarKhan 5 months ago

  

  What a waste of space.

• Leonard Scales 5 months ago

  

  I love this article! It confirms something I've experienced as VP of Sales. I've managed tech oriented sales organizations. Several of my salespeople had MBA's. To make a long story short, my sales reps without MBA's performed about 60% better on average than those with MBA's.
  
  Thanks for this! LS

• Zachary Rischitelli 5 months ago

  

  This is an interesting article, and I have to say I generally agree. There may be a flip side to this however. If you are in a young company that is at a disadvantage hiring experienced professionals there may be a better chance of landing someone with, at least, academic knowledge. This may not be a great option for every position, but in some cases having someone with more depth of knowledge will have to substitute for someone with more breadth of knowledge.

• Garrett Smith 5 months ago

  

  Academic titles don't always bear strong relevance to the workplace. It is not limited to grad school, nor undergraduate school, nor high school. They've all pretty much failed.
  
  In this article, I read some generalization fallacies about how to avoid making qualitative assessments of others.
  
  For example, this generalization + shallow false dichotomy: "Most people who go to grad school for humanities defend their decision by saying they love their topic. But look, if you love your topic, you can do it after work. Open the book and read it yourself."
  
  Not only is that very poorly written (and by an English major, no less), but it doesn't probe the person's behavior to see if it was reasonable or not. Instead, you make a hasty conclusion, then follow up with a generalization.
  
  I agree that Education has failed; and I'm sorry, but you're a great example of that.

• Leah Thomson 5 months ago

  

  Just read a few more of Ms. Trunk's posts and it is apparent that she is a "troll".

• Ann Swanson 5 months ago

  

  I think this is incendiary link bait, but then I have a Master's degree, so what do I know. Better go flip my burgers.

• Randi Knott 5 months ago

  

  I went to Grad School full time while working during the day and when all other things were equal, my Masters always pushed me ahead of the crowd. I think this is an awful mischaracterization. It's like saying that people become teachers because they never want to grow up. Or, perhaps we should stay undereducated as a nation and lose the global edge we so barely hold on to.

• Chefs' Professional 5 months ago

  

  As a recruiter with 26 years experience, I can contest to the false assumptions of this article. Non entrepreneurial MBA's? A good part of the MBA focus today is on business start up strategies, and a substantial number of MBA grads launch their first business within a year of completing the program. Grade based recognition? Maybe at Backwater U, but major universities focus on publication and the moving force for many graduate students is a profound interest and focus on a field, which translates very well to a business environment, thank you very much.
  Lawyers non productive? We are speaking of these young people who work 20 hours or more a day to gain even moderate acceptance within their firms. Perhaps we should hire high school drop outs for the Supreme Court?
  26 years and counting running a highly successful recruiting firm, entrepreneurial, after receiving two MA's in the...gasp..liberal arts.
  What we nincompoops fine exasperating is people who pontificate just to fill space on a blog.

• Heinrich Secker 5 months ago

  

  What a confused article this is. As a small business man, do I want to hire an entrepenuer, or do want to hire someone who has proved that they can work hard, independently, and are self motivated to accomplish long term goals? The latter describes the people I know went to grad school, and also would describe an entrepreneur!
  Your argument seems to be based on anecdotal evidence and unsupported suppositions that more than prove that your grad degree wasn't in history or philosophy.
  Wait a minute. You got a degree in English, you're writing articles that I am reading, and you're an English major....and there is no connection between your degree and your job?
  Or are you saying you not very good at it?

• Yphtach Lelkes 5 months ago

  

  "On balance, past behavior does predict future behavior." That would be incorrect. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. One paragraph in before I came to the conclusion that this lady has no idea what she's talking about.

• Kevin Horne 5 months ago

  

  is woman was the link-bait queen of bnet - she's already run this piece there at least twice.Shame on OPEN for giving over space to such nonsense...

• Peter Jones 5 months ago

  

  It's necessary to adjust your mindset a little, or perhaps widen it. All knowledge gain doesn't have to financially remunerative and be measured in ones marketing acumen - or, more precisely, this doesn't have to be the only yardstick by which we measure the value of learning about ourselves and the world around us.
  
  It's ashame you didn't have a more fulfilling time studying English - but don't assume that your experience is universal - as a teacher of the subject I actually find that such negative stories are very rare. I have met countless truly 'brazen', hard-working students who at university uncover richer and deeper seams of knowledge that undoubtedly enrich their lives. What they bring to society cannot necessarily be neatly fitted into a spreadsheet.

• Ola Ayeni, DVM 5 months ago

  

  You don't need to be an over achiever in higher college education to be successful in life. Check out names like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and the top reach and smart guys.
  
  To many books make the heart go weary - Proverbs

• Ola Ayeni, DVM 5 months ago

  

  This is the best advice any smart entrepreneur or startup wannabe should adhere to. Street smart is totally different from book smart. You see, what Penelope just wrote here is what I discovered few years ago. I was working for a big Pharma and started doing an MBA at University of Chicago at the same time. Took some classes and then my wife delivered our 3rd a day before my exam. I flunked the exam because I couldn't read, work and take care of 2 daughters plus my wife and a new one. There is no family around to help. Was already thinking of starting a company. So I decided to end the MBA, end the Pharma job. Take care of my family and start my company. Today my startup Dining Dialog, a bootstrapped startup is making money and has clients in 3 states. Was it hard ?yes it is hard. Made mistakes, lost money, had to learn the hard way but I am now making money, have clients and earned the respect, trust and relationship of my clients. The money I would have paid for my MBA education, I am paying it all to myself and family. For it's worth

• Renee Hughes 5 months ago

  

  I appreciate your view, and comprehend your opinion is valid for many. I would like to have seen you differentiate between those who went to grad school to get an MBA straight out of their undergrad degree vs. those who did it like I did: sweating it out at night and on weekends on top of having a full-time job. I was guided into getting practical experience before pursuing an MBA--a great tip, BTW. I am a CPA, so I pursued an MBA to round me out in areas other than accounting, e.g., marketing (especially understanding wholesale vs. retail), personnel, and general management, which the graduate degree did splendidly. R. Hughes www.squirrelb8.com

• Hilde van den Braak 5 months ago

  

  Love it. For years I have heard that without higher education than I have I will not get a better job (never to me personally by the way or perhaps I just didn´t hear it). But, I´ve got my own company and before that was very successful in my job. Love it that there is someone out there confirming that you can also be successful without higher education.

• Charles Hardwick 5 months ago

  

  I think Penelope's article has struck a nerve. Most of the negative reviews are from Degreed Individuals who have a vested interest in debunking the article's premise. I mean when you have invested 20% of you life in schooling plus a sizeable sum, you had better be right. That plus the fact that most of these folks may be looking over their shoulders... Failure is NOT an option. I have worked at a Fortune 500 company in the IT field and can tell you that what degreed individuals lack in People Skills they more than make for in petty viciousness. In the world of The Intelligencia, there are only (2) types; those who have and those who do not. And believe me, the latter are sufficiently looked down upon.

  • Garrett Smith 5 months ago

    

    Whether or not I have a degree remains undisclosed here. My criticism stands on its own.

• Lauren Lever 5 months ago

  

  Wow, thanks for trying to further decrease my chances at getting a job :(

• Fran Rahl 5 months ago

  

  The article is an over-generalization. There are masters programs out there that are career-oriented and are not havens for undergrads who don't want to go into the labor force. One good example is the Johns Hopkins Engineering For Professionals program. The students have day jobs and take their courses in the evening and/or on-line (http://www.heatcentermaryland.com/JHU/JHU%20Eng%20At%20A%20Glance%20Flier.pdf ). Instructors are all industry experts and the course content is kept current. Masters in Technical Management and in Systems Engineering are featured. See the above link for the very applicable areas of concentration. I'm proud to be one of the instructors.
  
  Francis Rahl

  • Kenneth Heitmann 5 months ago

    

    I agree Fran. I'm a technical manager with a recently completed (2010) Masters of Science is Technical Management. The program required a graduate capstone project that was relevant to what I do every day. A blanket statement like "Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School" because the author's degree is irreverent and lawyers are unhappy hurts everyone.

• Robbin Block 5 months ago

  

  With some articles you wish there were a thumbs down option, or at least an editor to gate the material. This is one of them. It's too overly generalized (and insulting) to be valuable.

• Hilary Hodge 5 months ago

  

  Penelope is engaging a clever tactic with her fanaticism--this article will drive droves of outraged readers to her blog (where she sells career consulting at $250/hr). Yes, JD and MBA programs are suffering from a glut of applicants currently, but attacking all of higher ed is just plain silly and insulting. Career Builder (a source I'd trust over Ms. Trunk) feels confident in telling candidates that there is an average of $3-20K salary gap between BA and MA candidates:
  
  http://www.careerbuilder.com/Article/CB-1152-Salaries-Promotions-
  Bachelors-vs-Masters-How-Does-Your-Salary-Stack-Up/
  
  and I myself can attest that pre-MA, I was earning poverty-level wages and post-MA--when I took a job that required an MA--the 25K raise was enough to pay off the cost-of-living loans I'd accrued in school. Graduate school hones diligence, critical thinking, reasoning and often pushes candidates to work harder, in less time, than they ever have. Top MBA programs offer their students a golden Rolodex of influential contacts. These skills aren't applicable to the workplace? Really??
  
  The ability to learn is a uniquely human capability and should be endorsed across all ages, professions, passions. Telling people to read books in their down time is foolish and condescending. What about those of us who work long hours? Have children? Volunteer? We're really supposed to read a higher degree's worth of material in Biology, Linguistics, Human Resources Management in the three hours between getting home from work and bedtime?
  
  Ignorance and judgment are dangerous things. Not sure why AmEx, a company steered by MBAs, is publishing this shoddily researched, heavy-handed, self-promoting (nearly all links direct to her website) piece.

• Julie Blutstein 5 months ago

  

  Thank you to those who pointed out the typos. They've now been fixed.
  
  Whether you agree with Penelope's "thesis" or not, It's nice to see such a lively, reasoned debate springing from this article. I think that the conversation makes the post that much more valuable and offers everyone who reads it a wider perspective. Forgive me for being a cheerleader for a moment (and a little bit biased), but it's one of the things that's so great about the OPEN Forum community!
  
  Julie
  (OPEN Forum Community Manager)

• Stacy Murphy 5 months ago

  

  Thesis with no supporting data..definatly not graduate level work. lol

• Laurie Hill 5 months ago

  

  I think that perhaps she was unable to get into grad school. Or law school. Or maybe college. Such a myopic view of the world may work when you are sitting at home staring at the computer, but for those of us who are successful in the workplace (and yes, with advance degrees), we have abandoned such childish views long, long ago.

• David Stifter 5 months ago

  

  After reading this I had to do a double take to make sure it wasn't posted on the Onion.
  
  So everyone who doesn't go out and start their own business is lazy unmotivated and short sighted? If that is case the topic of your article here "hiring workers.." seems to have a faulty premise as anyone who you hire was too lazy to start their own business so they will be poor employees.
  
  This writer maybe should go to grad school to put in some time to refine their craft...................

• Ryan Stoffko 5 months ago

  

  Medical School is a glorified Graduate Program... So I am going to interpret this article literally. Let's hire doctors who have come from undergraduate institutions!

  • Ryan Stoffko 5 months ago

    

    Grad School is the new college. This article is ridiculous, how are you going to be a lawyer without a law degree, doctor without a medical degree, scientist without a PhD, professor at a prominent instituion without a PhD or even a MS degree? I feel like this article is absolutely bogus and I can almost garuntee she does not have education post-undergraduate. I am going to get a PhD degree and MS at the same time. People who value education and are bright enough to obtain that information are people I would hire in a heartbeat. I am not saying that just because you have a certain Graduate degree you are a harder worker, but sweet Jesus, the information you acquire is necessary to your success.
    
    I know a lot of lawyers and people who have their graduate degrees, I can honestly say they are all happy making a significantly greater salary than everybody else! Sure it's more work, but more reward.
    
    Your ideal of dumping $100,000 into your own company, is absolutely absurd! You want to talk about rarities, find me a statistic that shows how many people who start their business with nothing more than a bachelors degree or associates degree are actually successful. I garuntee it is less than 1%.

    • Dana Thornton 5 months ago

      

      Thank you Ryan! I am a undergrad student with every intention of pusuing a higher education. This article made me upset! I was thinking what is the purpose of my continuing education? I am a business student, I believe that my education is a way to provide the capital I need, if I ever do want to start my own business. I have to have/make the $100,000 first, then I can venture out and take risk.

      • Valerie Lee 5 months ago

        

        Go for Dana. I got my MBA (2009) at 24 and it opened a ridiculous amount of doors despite the recession. I am in the position to hire people at a small business and we would never hire someone without an advance degree for the most part.

• Paul Kleinen, P.E. 5 months ago

  

  People who have an advanced degrees tend to value it in others becasue this validates their own investment of time and money. But in many fields, the best way to spend 2 years is not back at school but in a challenging developmental assignment at work. This is particularly true in a technical field when a return to school often causes an erosion of technical skills. Of course if your boss has an MBA, you may need to either fins someone else to work for or go back and get your credentials polished.

• tab 5 months ago

  

  I wouldn't hire Ms. Trunk either. Her writing is atrocious.

• Jim Uchneat 5 months ago

  

  A great rule of thumb for a hiring manager with no ability to think or understanding of what it takes to build a successful business. This is the equivalent of sound bite politics. It is more destructive than constructive.

• Jenn Eldin 5 months ago

  

  This article may be out of date with MBA trends...MBA programs are highly focused on experienced based learning these days, and because of the access to VC exposure and successful mentors that MBA start-up competitions provide, many fantastic new start-ups have come out of MBA programs (Bump, for instance).

• Sumner Grace 5 months ago

  

  Interesting comments about grad school. A couple of points to consider: Many extended their education predicting (correctly) that the 4 year degree of today is the high school diploma of a generation (or 2) ago. Companies want a more highly educated workforce - just check how many job postings now require (not prefer) a master's degree. While many return to school to fill in a gap during unemployment or leverage college reimbursement from an employer it is always good to continue to challenge yourself and grow. However there are issues with colleges and universities in general - they do not produce an employment ready workforce. Gradually collaboration, independent thought (not just regurgitation), creativity are rising to areas of training and grading (or impacting grades). What is missing in some cases are areas of accountability and growth - typically found in military academy/training. You should never overlook our (active, retired and reserve) veterans who have also leveraged college tuition reimbursement for grad school. Finally it is important to note that, as many of us found out, we did not know as much as we thought with our 4 year degree when we focused on a career path - and a grad degree focused that passion and effort. After 20 years in the HR industry (corporate and service side) one thing is for sure - the culture of a company can ruin the superstar and make a superstar of the multiple fired candidate - that is the true screen, interview and predictor of any organization's ability to recruit, retain and/or build the best employee and workforce possible. And for full disclosure: I went to grad school, have been very successful in my career and now own my own business. As I have traveled extensively to conferences I find myself to be more of the rule than the exception. Sorry you do not feel the same. In fact, it may be time for another degree - school is fun and a privilege many would (and do) fight for. what you think #talentscout1 on twitter

• Alpha Omega 5 months ago

  

  I also would like to comment on the fact that Penelope HERSELF went to Grad School- so I'm curious if she's wondering why anybody hired HER all those years ago. Should she have told that company NOT to hire her based on the above? Does she believe the company made a huge mistake by hiring her? If she didn't have her own company and needed to apply for a job, would she STILL believe companies today should not hire her based on he fact that she went to grad school?
  
  Because that's kind of what she's implying. And it's incredibly hypocritical- particularly if she ever gets another job.

  • Penelope Trunk 5 months ago

    

    Hi

    • Penelope Trunk 5 months ago

      

      Hi. I went to graduate school for English. Everything in that program I could have learned at home, with books and the Internet. And the degree is useless in the job market.
      
      Penelope

      • Leah Thomson 5 months ago

        

        Might not necessarily be the degree that is useless, but the degree combined with your lack of writing and reasoning abilities, Penelope.

      • Hilary Hodge 5 months ago

        

        What about specialized degrees in the natural sciences, economics, public health, electrical, mechanical and civil engineering, computer science, nursing, education administration, dentistry, pharmacy, finance, forestry, physical therapy, clinical psychiatry, veterinary medicine, chemistry, information sciences and so on? [Those degrees are taken from a list of the most commonly pursued in North America.] Clearly those skills are specialized and need intense study in a higher ed setting.
        
        An English degree is somewhat out of the norm of these as it is not one of the top 50 MA degrees pursued in this country and, yes, it is arguably one that covers information one could study in their own time. MFA programs, a related group, are intended to provide students with mentorship and time to work on creative projects and to build the network they will need to thrive in extremely competitive spheres.
        
        It seems like you're basically saying you feel your English degree didn't help you much in the workplace and that you want to ensure people who pursue MAs, MBAs, JDs etc. know what they're getting into, understand the crowded marketing place and grasp the debt they are undertaking. Those all seem like reasonable points.
        
        I think the comments here (including mine) are from people offended by being roped into the categories of "afraid of the real world", "incapable of self-starting" or "uncreative".

• Brian Johnson, MBA 5 months ago

  

  I think you are totally off-base with this statement, "If the person doesn’t believe in themselves enough to give their own ideas a shot, why should you believe in them?," and about your opinion of business school as a whole. Not everyone who goes to business school wants to be an entrepreneur. And in most businesses there is really only room for one entrepreneurial vision - that of the owner/founder. What every successful entrepreneur does need is to surround themselves with supporters who are capable of carrying out that vision and making it a reality. I am a graduate of a Top-10 MBA program who who has spent almost 20 years working for smaller business and helping make them successful - starting as a general accountant and rising through the ranks to now be CFO of a startup software publishing company. I apply my business school education each and every day helping the owners better understand what is happening in the business, see the effects of their proposed and executed decisions, and helping translate financial data into action plans for improvement and growth. I have never once wanted to start my own business, I enjoy helping others make their businesses shine. Then why did I go to business school? After years in marketing after undergrad, I realized that finance and accounting was my true passion and getting an MBA made that transition possible. I agree that if your goal is to become an entrepreneur, business school is a poor substitute for practical experience. But if you are hiring "rock stars" to help you make your business a success, slamming the door on those who did go to business school it will be your loss.

  • Penelope Trunk 5 months ago

    

    The vast majority of people who get MBAs do not go to a top-10 school. The employment rate of people in a top-10 school vs. everyone else is vastly different. So your experience is probably the exception, and not the norm.
    
    Also, Challenger & Gray has data to show that people who get their MBAs after age 30 do not recoup the cost of the program in their future salaries. So I'm not sure that using an MBA for a career change will work out for most people.
    
    Penelope

• Anne Delaney 5 months ago

  

  There were significant spelling errors in this article . . . too bad that this article is so opinion based. Many people return to school for higher education and work full time, myself included. I hope the author reconsiders their position with regards to higher education.

• PAZ TANJUAQUIO 5 months ago

  

  (re-posting, got cut-off)
  I am surprised that American Express would support such poor views of a blanket statement "Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School" (especially since your card carriers typically have had higher education) - without regard or research to certain professions that require higher degrees, and disrespects those who are spending time, money, & energy in achieving their professional & personal goals. The articles you choose is a reflection of Amex, & it is disappointing that this article was chosen to be published. I'm all for freedom of expression - had this been an Opinion page, that would be fine. But written as advice in Amex' Open Forum, is not smart business.

• Bianca Bartel 5 months ago

  

  I agree with the comments below. I'm unsure why OPEN Forum would post such a pessimistic, anti-education article. As someone about to start business school while working, I'm don't see myself as an underachiever... rather I love learning and want to build on my skill set.

• PAZ TANJUAQUIO 5 months ago

  

  I am surprised that American Express would support such poor views of a blanket statement "Don’t Hire People Who Went To Grad School" (especially since your card carriers typically have had higher education) - without regard or research to certain professions that require higher degrees, and disrespects those who are spending time, money,

• Mike Brice 5 months ago

  

  As a working professional who has returned to grad school, I am glad others commented on this article's flaws.
  
  I don't find grad school as an escape, I find it educational. And I am not dumping a lot of money - my employer provides educational assistance. So in my mind, I am augmenting my education at just the right time, and I believe I will be a better performer for it both now and when I complete my degree.

• CHARLES PARKER 5 months ago

  

  Sounds to me like Penelope has issues that counseling or medication might help - oh wait, that help might require someone with an advanced degree. I found the article laughably short on facts and long on opinion. My experience as a business owner and proud holder of a bachelors degree has proven a masters is not necessary for success, but having a masters does not demonstrate immaturity, social awkwardness or presage failure.

• LESLIE FRIEDRICH 5 months ago

  

  I've no idea why American Express OPEN Forum would even publish an article like this. I have my own opinion about certain bogus degrees-- for example, a PhD in Natural Health from an online university not listed in US News and World Report, designed to impress rather than inform the reader or audience. I went to graduate school right after college because I really did enjoy the subject, got a scholarship, and was able to meet a lot of different people and gain experiences not available in the business world. Some people have multiple degrees because they live in a city with great universities and have the time and money to take advantage of that--or they want to change careers. To make such generalized statements about people with graduate degrees in the Humanities, Law and Business in this type of forum is not really appropriate. I hope the editors will consider removing it.

• JEFFREY SOLOMON 5 months ago

  

  Personality traits are key,as is the ability to mesh with the firm's culture. What people have done in the past is a good indicator. I have spent 30 years trying complex commercial and fraud cases. In the past, I have hired interns and associates who have before law school: organized a college dance troupe

• Janey McMillen 5 months ago

  

  I am definitely in agreement with Sheryl's post. I think that whether or not you are hiring someone with a graduate degree is dependent entirely on the job you are hiring them to execute. Do you really want to be treated by a doctor who didn't go to graduate school? If your company is being sued by a litigious individual do you want your company represented by a lawyer who didn't go to graduate school? As the Research Director of a small business that focuses on Innovation Research, I would be remiss to hire someone who has no graduate training in research. The average liberal arts undergraduate degree will in no way prepare individuals for conducting pharamaceutical trials. I think the blogger might want to consider doing a bit more research (no pun intendd) on this topic before posting.....

• Sheryl 5 months ago

  

  This article is pretty heavy on opinion and incredibly, incredibly low on actual evidence (like statistics on pay or job performance for those with graduate degrees). Clearly the writer has no respect for higher education but I don't see how that has any bearing on why someone with a degree should or should not be hired.
  
  I didn't even finish my bachelor's degree but I don't look down on those who have more academic drive than I do.